Potter! SPOILER WARNING IF YOU HAVEN'T FINI BK6!

[Captain Annie]

seen as we have just got the new book out (yeay!) I thought it would be cool to have a section where we could discuss it and throw about theories!

[Flick]

Good idea. I believe Dumbledore is related to Gryffindor.

[stanie]

Me too he fully surports them more, maybe he was in Gyrffindor when he was at school

[Captain Annie]

Yeah I think he was, I am thinking that Fawkes maybe could be Godric Griffendor! I think that wizzards have many options when they die - ghost etc and GG decided to become a phoenix. I reckon that is the path which DD has taken as well, Harry said something about thinking he saw a phoenix rising from the coffin at the funeral so I reckon that that is DD soul or something!

[stanie]

YEs that may be a very good idea

[wilderbeest]

RAB = Regulus Alphard Black in my opinion. He reached the horcrux with the help of Kreacher and the real horcrux is the heavy locket none of them could open when cleaning out Grimauld Place in OotP. I found a very good thory on Snape's innocence, will have to look for it again.

[wilderbeest]

Here we go: (from this point all this material is quoted from another website and is not my own material)

Theories (and Spoilers)
So, I said this journal would only be for fanfiction, but I can't resist posting these thoughts on HBP. Here be spoilers, so proceed at your own risk.


Dumbledore's End, Snape's Betrayal, R.A.B.'s Note, and Mundungus' Thieving

First of all, R.A.B. has to be Regulus Black. This has practical implications for Harry because, when he figures it out, it will help him find the real locket Horcrux.

Where is the locket? On page 116 of OotP (U.S. paperback edition), Sirius and the kids are cleaning out an old cabinet which contains items such as a snuffbox with Wartcap powder, a music box, and a 'heavy locket which none of them could open'. I'd bet that's the locket in question.

Now, one of three things could have happened to the locket, which we assume was thrown into the bin with the other things that had been in the cabinet: either it went out with the rest of the rubbish, or Kreacher nicked it (and Harry will have to go back to Grimmauld Place to retrieve it) or Mundungus stole it and fenced it. I'm willing to bet on this last one; why else would the scene with Mundungus and the stolen Black family silver have been given such prominence in HBP, except to remind us of Mundungus' activities so that it's not a shock when JKR brings it back up in the seventh book?

Aside from the practical implications for getting and destroying the locket, Regulus' note sheds some interesting light on Regulus' death, Dumbledore's death and Snape's 'betrayal'. Why is this?

Regulus states that he knows he will be dead by the time the Dark Lord gets the note. Not because the Dark Lord or anyone else will kill him for stealing the Horcrux (Dumbledore mentions, in his conversation with Harry about Riddle's diary, that Voldemort probably doesn't automatically know when a Horcrux is destroyed); instead, I think Regulus knew that the potion in the cave would most likely kill him when he stole the Dark Lord's locket Horcrux, which changes our conception of his death. Regulus was not, as Sirius said, an idiot who joined up and then got himself killed when he saw what he was asked to do and backed out; instead he found out about some of Voldemort's most precious plans for immortality and made an active attempt to thwart them. He went out in a blaze of self-sacrificial glory.

Now, what does this mean for Dumbledore and Snape? Well, it gives us the knowledge (or at least the hint) that the potion in the cave is probably going to kill the drinker. Dumbledore hints at this too; he implies that, though it won't kill immediately, it will probably leave the drinker alive long enough to cause a lot of pain or perhaps even allow Voldemort to find out who had attempted to steal one of his Horcruxes. The biggest confirmation that the potion is lethal, and that Dumbledore knows or at least suspects it, is that he does not allow Harry to drink it--he all but says that he is expendable and that Harry is not. Also, later, there is the fact that Dumbledore chooses to save Harry (well, save him from himself, really, by Freezing him so he can't do anything rash on the tower) instead of defending himself; defending himself is less important because he knows is going to die anyway.

So Dumbledore knows he is dying during the scenes after retrieving the locket, during the return to Hogsmeade and on top of the tower. Throughout the conversation with Malfoy he grows steadily weaker. Even as he is convincing Malfoy not to kill him, he is already dying (and probably has known he was coming close to death all year anyway, or why would he have taken the trouble to pass his work on the Horcruxes on to Harry?). Dumbledore reasons with Malfoy, not to save his own life but to spare Malfoy having blood and murder on his hands. The fact that Dumbledore is dying anyway would not make Malfoy's act of murder any less despicable, and Dumbledore does not want Malfoy to become a murderer; we get the impression that Malfoy is not naturally evil, anyway, in this scene. He is under extreme coercion.

Things change a bit when the Death Eaters arrive--now there is the new problem of keeping Malfoy alive. Dumbledore knows that, if Malfoy doesn't kill him, Malfoy will probably either be killed on the spot by the Death Eaters or taken to Voldemort, who will kill him.

So, here's my theory: when Snape appears, Dumbledore knows this is the perfect opportunity to accomplish all of his immediate goals--save Malfoy's life and keep him from doing a despicable act, plus allow Snape to fulfill his Unbreakable Vow (which I am sure he knew all about, just as he knew all about Malfoy's plan) and therefore a) not die and b) remain 'in' with the Death Eaters as a spy--and all this simply by doing something he knew he was going to do anyway: die.

However, we are stuck in Harry's POV, so all we see is Dumbledore apparently pleading with Severus for his life, then Snape 'gazing at the professor for a moment' with a 'look of hatred and revulsion' and finally casting the Killing Curse. Later Harry will report this to his friends and members of the Order and it will be seen as a great betrayal (by everyone except Harry, who has 'known' it all along).

But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them? Oh, no. I think Dumbledore is asking Snape, via his thoughts, to kill him. Remember that Dumbledore's pain and delirium in the cave have already led him to ask for release by death ('Kill me,' he says to Harry). Now Dumbledore is a bit more rational, but he sees that his own death at Severus' hands can serve a purpose. His pleas are not for his life but for his death.

Snape does it without question or argument, just as he went back to Voldemort at Dumbledore's behest after the Tri-Wizard tournament. Unlike Harry, Snape takes Dumbledore's word as law.

Reinterpreted in light of a request by Dumbledore, Snape's look of 'hatred and revulsion' takes on a new meaning. This is not hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore personally (or what Dumbledore stands for) so much as hatred and revulsion for being asked to do this to Dumbledore, for being asked to add murder to all of the other things he has done. This may explain also Snape's extreme reaction, later, to being called a coward; he has just been asked to kill the man in whom he placed his trust--the man who has protected him for fifteen years, and for whom he has done dangerous things, including spying and now committing murder in order to keep a student safe and uncorrupted by evil--and has complied with the request. Of course being called a coward after all this, and by Potter, would rankle.


[/lecture]


The locket/Regulus connection is very close to a sure thing--we know that JKR likes to plant clues for us, and a magically-sealed locket just happening to be in a house once occupied by a person with the initials R.B. (though we don't know about his middle initial) can't be a coincidence. The Snape thing, on the other hand, is much more my interpretation, though I do think the facts support, or at least allow for, it. When I've had a bit more sleep I'll go look up the exact quotes and page numbers...not to mention go back through 'Spinner's End', and see if that sheds any more light on the situation.

By the way, and this is just a completely random thought, you know how JKR tends to get stuck on repeated details? In OotP it was people spilling/slopping/spitting out their juice/Firewhiskey/Butterbeer in surprise or disbelief (Rita and several others; I'll go look that up later). There was also Ron moaning and groaning about food every other chapter. In this book, did you notice just how often people sat down for a drink? The two ministers (whiskey), Snape with Narcissa and Bellatrix (bloodred wine), Dumbledore and the Dursleys (mead), and Slughorn with just about any and everyone, the big old lush. Also, how often Harry called Tom handsome? Just sayin'.

--Garland




ETA: Supporting Quotes

Here are some quotes that support my theories. All page numbers are from the U.S. hardback edition. (Please forgive the rampant academicism, and scroll down if you just want another random thought and some squeeing over Arthur :-)

‘Mundungus!’
The squat, bandy-legged man with long, straggly, ginger hair jumped and dropped an ancient suitcase, which burst open, releasing what looked like the entire contents of a junk-shop window…..
‘You took that from Sirius’s house,’ said Harry…. (pp. 245-246)

‘Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?’ Harry asked, ignoring the portraits.
‘A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do….’ (p. 507)

‘Why can’t I drink the potion instead?’ asked Harry desperately.
‘Because I am much older, much cleverer, and much less valuable,’ said Dumbledore. (p. 570)

Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore’s mouth….
Dumbledore…moaned, ‘Don’t hurt them, don’t hurt them, please, please, it’s my fault, hurt me instead…’
Dumbledore drank, and no sooner had he finished than he yelled, ‘KILL ME!’ (pp. 571 – 573)

He could not understand how it had happened--Expelliarmus was not a Freezing Charm--
Then, by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore’s wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and understood…Dumbledore had wordlessly immobilised Harry, and the second he had taken to perform the spell had cost him the chance of defending himself. (p. 584)

‘Yeah, well, you still didn’t realise who was behind that stuff, did you?’ sneered Malfoy, as Dumbledore slid a little down the ramparts, the strength in his legs apparently fading….
‘As a matter of fact, I did,’ said Dumbledore. ‘I was sure it was you.’ (pp. 589-590)

‘Now, Draco, quickly!’ said the brutal-faced man angrily. (p.594)

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the hard lines of his face.
‘Severus…please…’ (p. 595)

‘Don’t--’ screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them--‘CALL ME COWARD!’ (p. 604)

‘To the Dark Lord,
I know I will be dead long before you read this…..I face death in the hope that when you meet your match, you will be mortal once more. R.A.B.’ (p. 609)




ETA: Random Thought + Squeeing

Here is another random thing that struck me as I was flipping through and looking for page numbers. In the midst of the battle, on page 601:

The giant Gryffindor hourglass had been hit by a curse, and the rubies within were still falling, with a loud rattle, onto the flagstones below.

Is it just me, or is that the death rattle of the school, and of youth, and of silly things like Quidditch and points and petty rivalries? Many reviewers noted that OotP ends without any mention of the House Cup winner, which is appropriate given Harry’s state of mind. Now, however, Harry is not the only one who likely does not care one whit about who won or lost. Whether the school closes or not, students are leaving in droves--including Harry and Draco. They all are facing terrible losses and difficulties, and this image of the broken hourglass (which is of course appropriate--time passing, growing up, &c.) and the spilled points seemed like the most melancholy thing in the world to me.

Which is not to say that I wasn’t laughing madly during a lot of the book. I mean, Slughorn’s faux Death Eater attack? And Roonil Wazlib’s textbook? And Fleur’s happy pillow-fluffing? And Harry telling Goyle he’s ‘very pretty’? And Kreacher reporting that Draco eats in the Great Hall, sleeps in a dormitory, &c.? And Trelawney hiding her empties? And Mollywobbles? And the constipation sensation that’s gripping the nation? And Luna, Luna, Luna…and just everything, everything….

But the number one squee-worthy thing ever of all time:

‘What is your dearest ambition?’
‘To find out how aeroplanes stay up.’

Because I heart Arthur to the ends of the earth and beyond, but also because, for all one might study physics and aerodynamics, flight is still a weird and wondrous thing, and wouldn’t we all like to know?

[Captain Annie]

okay that is long! ive read half of it but I need to toodle off to sort stuff out so ill read the rest later

[wilderbeest]

Yes, sorry, I know it's very long but I thought it was very good.